Curse

Lorekeeper · Nov 19, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Hey all

My post is borne out of a build up of quiet fustration over the period of about a year of PvPing. I intend for my post to highlight in a constructive manner... the problems i see with the way the metagame is managed through both the mechanics of PvP that we are given and the skills which we are given to use.

The most obvious issue i can think of is the fact that every so often the PvP metagame is dominated by a very select few skill combinations. For example... think back to ranger spike... air spike... emo smite...iway... bloodspike... to name the most famous.

I grew as a player... in PvP... from rank 1... having experience playing a whole range of different character builds. Almost every rank i reached came with it the ability to play another profession or two. This was because i felt like the more diverse my abilities the greater chance i had in getting into a team...

Look at players today in HA... you see players growing through the ranks being able to play a very limited amount of roles. Rank 3 searing flames ele lfg... rank 2 rao thumper lfg... or back in iway days.. r5 iway war lfg... If i was a new player in HA today i wouldnt share the same sentiment that i felt last year... i would only need to be able to play a very limited amount of roles in order to find a team.

The desire to gain experience in multiple roles is a reflection of the diversity and demand for players to be able to play multiple roles. If there is a demand for a certain type of player... players will grow to meet that demand.

This alone i think is a very very clear statement of what has happened to HA. The metagame is so limited that you could find r3+ players who are only able to play as a Searing flames elementalist. Ive no doubt there are players who in iway days got to rank 9 as an iway warrior... or during bloodspike days where a rank 9 player had got it by playing purely bloodspike. Gone are the days when you could safely assume that a player of rank 6+ experience would be able to play at least 4 of the core classes. All you can do now is assume that a r6 player can play as an iway warrior or a bloodspike necro or a vimtrapper or a searing flames ele. The significance of naming these builds in this way is that... an iway warrior is one of dozens of different warrior builds a warrior should be capable of playing. A bloodspike necro is one of dozens of potential necro builds you could run. However wat popular incentive is there for players do develop these abilities when in all practicality... they dont NEED to under the conditions of the current metagame.

My point is... it seems that as we progress through the various chapters... the metagame is becoming more and more vulnerable to becoming dominated by certain FOTM builds centering on a couple of... ''imbalanced'' skills. And you might think that this is due to the fact that everyone gets all excited about the new skills and thus everyone is running the new skills when they are still a novelty... but im sorry have you seen Rampage as One and Searing Flames?? I dont care how novel RaO is... when the glitz and sparkle runs out it is STILL a skill with no parallel in terms of melee buff.

(For purposes of my argument and to limit its scope ill ignore the presence of Heroes in HA atm.)

What i am asking is this.... why must the metagame PERPETUALLY be put into a situation where certain skills are BOUND to be more popular than others? The whole concept of balancing skills is surely so that the metagame is fluid and transparent... meaning... you have the opportunity to take advantage of at least a LARGE range of skill combinations in order to be successful.

Just look at the number of skills that NIGHTFALL introduced... and then look at the current state of GvG and HA metagame. You should notice that there doesnt seem to be a very good correlation between INCREASES number of skills and INCREASES in build diversity.

Im very disappointed that there is no strong correlation between the two. And i should hope its logical to expect such a correlation as long as we have a well balanced skill range. isnt it the ideal situation we all yearn for?

Dont get me wrong... the fact that the Metagame currently is dominated by Searing flames fire elementalists and Rampage as One Ranger/Warriors, is not an indication that OTHER skills are bad. Quite the opposite.

The fact that ANY metagame in ANY season is dominated by a handful of skills is an indication that these skills are out of sync in terms of balance with the other skills available to us.

Lets take a look at the Rampage as One skill in the context of the history of skill balance changes. In order to do this we need to look at Tigers/Bestial Fury. Tigers/Bestial fury... used to give a 33% attack speed boost and paved way for a GvG season dominated by teams running builds revolving around at least 2 Bunny thumpers. The perma 33% attack speed boost coupled with a hammer and a pet fueling adrenaline and energy... made bunny thumpers incredibly good at applying HUGE pressure with very little micromanagement and skill involved.

What happened? Tigers fury got nerfed... so that it no longer gave 33% attack speed boost... it is now 25%. What happened after? NO MORE bunny thumpers anywhere (due to irresistible blow being hit by nerf bat also)

Dont you think thats a little drastic? One season the metagame was dominated by this... the next... it disappeared. So wats going on here?

It seems at first we have something that is clearly imbalanced... then the reaction is to make it so ineffective that it isnt even a viable option anymore?? ANYONE else see fault in this? Why cant we have things in the happy medium??? Keep it good enough so that we might THINK about using it... but not so GREAT that we NEVER think about running anything else.

Ok so i kinda accepted this because after all... Nightfall was coming out and i was very excited to see the new skills and new classes and their impact on the metagame.

WHATS THIS I SEE?

Rampage as One... gives 33% faster attack speed AND 25% movement speed boost.

I must say im mystified. Baffled. Speechless. This 1 skill contradicts everything that was changed about Tigers fury.

Im not saying that it is a skill open to abuse. Its not a game breaking skill. It is however... totally imbalanced in that it alone offers a melee character an unparalleled buff to attack and movement speed rolled into 1 stance. The ease at which this skill enables a very simple skill combo to inflict such high pressure is something that

1) can be done by almost anyone with little experience
2) makes you forget that theres other ways to achieve your goal through other means because there really are no parallels

it is these 2 points that i believe contribute to the dominance of a handful of skills in the seasonal history of the GW PvP metagame.

i am looking forward to the skill balance after the end of the season... i really hope that i will be able to exercise my creative desires when building GvG and HA builds, specially with all the nice mesmer and hecro hexes. I really hope that i do not have to be constantly reminded that in order to be successful in HA i have to counter the shouts of the paragons and the fire dmg of the Fire eles in EVERY build i make. I want to be able to play in a metagame where these builds are merely PART of the metagame instead BEING the metagame. I know its a tough job... i know it takes time and effort. But some of the skills that were introduced in nightfall should never have made it through alpha.

i havent even touched on Paragons and the echo skill ''Energising finale'' introducing a class that utilises unremovable (though not completely uncounterable) partywide buffs... is just asking for abuse.

thanks for you time everyone

lorekeeper

edit: yeh sorry Remmeh its a skill... which makes it even more imbalanced cos you cant even wild blow it off the ranger.

remmeh · Nov 19, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Rampage as One isn't even a stance. So you can use a stance while in Rampage as One. Like Whirling Defense.

Warskull · Nov 19, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

There will always be a fotm build. RoA probably is overpowered, but even if you take searing flames and RoA away a new fotm will emerge. A vast majority of GW players are mediocre at best and have to specialize in a role. They don't know how to make builds, understand the metagame, and make complex tactical decisions. Thus taking a build already made with the play style already laid out allows them to just play for someone. FotM builds are a necessity for a large amount of players.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 19, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

The way I see things, is that yes indeed there are skills that are plain out overpowered, and then there are some that are not, but when certain skills are put into a certain build trying to accomplish a certain play style or objective, at times those skills may seem overpowered. Do those skills used in those builds deserve a nerf? So we have people that decide these things, are they always right? Probably not.
Regarding for instance the rampage as one skill, I'd agree, I have no idea why the skill was added especially after the nerf to tigers fury, maybe some thought it would be fine because it takes an elite spot? I don't know. Obviously there are big problems relating to ALPHA TESTERS, and the people at Anet who thought up of such skills. These people knew that just an increase in attack speeds with a thumper was becoming a problem, hence the nerf to tigers. Yet in another release of their game, skills are put back in with a different name, and totally contradicting nerfs put in place weeks/months earlier. I see this as a never ending cycle between the two. Especially if every so often a new chapter is released, and nerfs only come about once a season, that in it's self is looking doom.

Bankai · Nov 19, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Blaming alpha testers is stupid. People are incredibly inventive. They'll try everything. You can't think of everything as an alpha tester.

Plus, I've heard of Anet ignoring remarks of Alpha testers how some skills were overpowered (spiritual pain).

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 19, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Blaming alpha testers is stupid. People are incredibly inventive. They'll try everything. You can't think of everything as an alpha tester.

Plus, I've heard of Anet ignoring remarks of Alpha testers how some skills were overpowered (spiritual pain).

I never said I blame them, I related the two, anet+alpha testers, and as you just pointed out there are problems between the two. Point seen?

Red Locust · Nov 19, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

A live environment is also a much better testing ground than the alpha environment, for many different reasons, which is why so many things pop up on live that haven't been tracked down in alpha before release.

tomcruisejr · Nov 19, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Tiger's Fury was nerfed is to kill IWAY and they saw an opportunity to hack it through TF thumpers.

Nightfall came and they put back the ability of the thumpers to do 33% IAS. what happened to TF/IWAY warriors? dead.

/end conspiracy theories

ZenRgy · Nov 19, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmeh

Rampage as One isn't even a stance. So you can use a stance while in Rampage as One. Like Whirling Defense.

No idea why you'd want whirling defence - I don't think it matters, I doubt similar effects would stack (eg. TF + RaO for a total +58% attack speed etc.)

It's not really overpowered, but I suppose I could understand a nerf, personally I think some paragon shouts need a nerf, but that's just me.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 19, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Similar effects DO stack, but attack speed increase is capped at 33%, as is movement speed increase.

Kakumei · Nov 20, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

The big difference between Tiger's Fury and Rampage As One is that the latter is elite. That tends to make a difference.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 20, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Most posts in here contradict everything said.

We all must realize Anet is out to make money, and the best way to do that is by making everything easier and much more fun to play. Alas, they purposely put in imba skills.

Everybody wants their rank, so they make easy builds to run in HA. Everybody hearts winning their gvgs, so they made it easier. And that's why they wait to nerf such skills. They already "nerfed" RaO. It's still very useful, and imo it takes a bit more skill to pull off now. Especially in HA.

I doubt they'll nerf SF, mainly because it actually makes eles do what they were intended to do. They're supposed to be DPS machines, and now they actually are.

Some skills just seem imba because they haven't been out long enough to find the best counters for them tbh.

Drewfense · Nov 20, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

No idea why you'd want whirling defence - I don't think it matters, I doubt similar effects would stack (eg. TF + RaO for a total +58% attack speed etc.)

It's not really overpowered, but I suppose I could understand a nerf, personally I think some paragon shouts need a nerf, but that's just me.

The two biggest problems with thumpers is targets kiting and being a soft target. Being able to use whirling prevents them from really be spiked down.

Proof albiet it should be unnecessary, FotM king Moa Birds is running Whirling on both of their thumpers making it pointless to target them.

Making it a stance takes this away. Furthermore, a wild blow/throw to knock a ranger out of it would hurt his energy pool significantly. I think a further nerf would be required though, say reducing one of the enhancements to 25%.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 20, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Whirling on thumpers just seems stupid to me. They already have 80 AL while their pets are alive (equivilant to warriors), and skillslots are in short supply since they have to bring Charm and Comfort. Even if RoO was a stance I can't see why it would change things - if you're getting spiked you really don't care much about keeping your IAS stance, and having it down for a few seconds isn't game breaking.

To put it another way - the reason good warriors don't bring Defensive Stance isn't because they're worried that it will kick them out of Rush. Warriors don't bring defensive stances because they want to spend their skillslots on killing things more effectively. You counter spikes as a warrior with smart play, not by wasting a precious skillslot on a spike counter that you really don't need.

Greedy Gus · Nov 20, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

Lets take a look at the Rampage as One skill in the context of the history of skill balance changes. In order to do this we need to look at Tigers/Bestial Fury. Tigers/Bestial fury... used to give a 33% attack speed boost and paved way for a GvG season dominated by teams running builds revolving around at least 2 Bunny thumpers. The perma 33% attack speed boost coupled with a hammer and a pet fueling adrenaline and energy... made bunny thumpers incredibly good at applying HUGE pressure with very little micromanagement and skill involved.

What happened? Tigers fury got nerfed... so that it no longer gave 33% attack speed boost... it is now 25%. What happened after? NO MORE bunny thumpers anywhere (due to irresistible blow being hit by nerf bat also)

Dont you think thats a little drastic? One season the metagame was dominated by this... the next... it disappeared. So wats going on here?

It seems at first we have something that is clearly imbalanced... then the reaction is to make it so ineffective that it isnt even a viable option anymore?? ANYONE else see fault in this? Why cant we have things in the happy medium??? Keep it good enough so that we might THINK about using it... but not so GREAT that we NEVER think about running anything else.

I'm just quoting this part of the OP, as I feel that it illuminates the general problem of the logic being used for the whole argument. Basically you're ignoring the human factor, where people don't necessarily play skills and builds in exact proportion to how effective they are on an absolute scale. People's decisions are subject to whim, bandwagon effects, creativity, etc.

If a skill gets nerfed and everyone stops running it, it does not necessarily mean that the nerf itself was so devastating that it can't be run anymore. Many times it's more of a feeling that "this was nerfed, so it can't be imba anymore. Let's find something else to run". TF Thumpers weren't absolutely destroyed, they were just turned down. You could still run them and have success, people just didn't want to run something that was the toned down version of their previous beast of a build.

When Air of enchant smiters were nerfed initially, people stopped running them. It took iQ or QQ or someone running them successfully in the spotlight still to assure people that they still worked, and they became popular again with some minor twists.

This is exactly what Anet attempts to do with skill updates. To make most builds be not necessarily the thing you "have" to run, but rather make them fit in certain niches. Even after nerfing AoE smite or thumper skills, some people will still find them useful in certain situations and use them well. It's not Anet's fault that there are only a handful of guilds with enough understanding of the game theory and a willingness to experiment with things. So for the casual player, the metagame is pretty much a lot of sheep waiting to be led.

Now for certain there is a valid concern about balance, where skills clearly come in unbalanced. They get fixed with time, but it's just a case of having too small a number of dedicated unpaid PvP alpha testers. Things will slip through the cracks, and we have to wait patiently while abusing the hell out of them before they're balanced.

This kind of ties into something Kestrel has been complaining about. The feeling that the 'metagame' isn't really in the players hands, it just matters on which powerful new skills Arenanet adds to the game with each chapter.

Anet has said that they will always continue to have good skills as well as poor skills with each additional chapter. You can't have every skill be completely on the same level with each other just like in Magic you can't have every card be as good as the next. You're going to have your skills like gift of health, images of remorse, extinguish, freezing gust, etc. that champion their attribute line or even profession and sell future chapters to the competitive crowd.

Is it a problem? Can it be fixed? Probably would be a good discussion. If all skills are equally as desirable as the others, would the game even be as strategic? Could Anet introduce different ways for the playerbase to create dynamic metagames, rather than handing us some good skills, some bad skills, and some 'meh' ones, and forcing our hand?

Thom Bangalter · Nov 20, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

If a skill gets nerfed and everyone stops running it, it does not necessarily mean that the nerf itself was so devastating that it can't be run anymore. Many times it's more of a feeling that "this was nerfed, so it can't be imba anymore. Let's find something else to run". TF Thumpers weren't absolutely destroyed, they were just turned down. You could still run them and have success, people just didn't want to run something that was the toned down version of their previous beast of a build.

When Air of enchant smiters were nerfed initially, people stopped running them. It took iQ or QQ or someone running them successfully in the spotlight still to assure people that they still worked, and they became popular again with some minor twists.

This is exactly what Anet attempts to do with skill updates. To make most builds be not necessarily the thing you "have" to run, but rather make them fit in certain niches. Even after nerfing AoE smite or thumper skills, some people will still find them useful in certain situations and use them well. It's not Anet's fault that there are only a handful of guilds with enough understanding of the game theory and a willingness to experiment with things. So for the casual player, the metagame is pretty much a lot of sheep waiting to be led.

Now for certain there is a valid concern about balance, where skills clearly come in unbalanced. They get fixed with time, but it's just a case of having too small a number of dedicated unpaid PvP alpha testers. Things will slip through the cracks, and we have to wait patiently while abusing the hell out of them before they're balanced.

I think this is really the meat of the argument. Is it really ANet's fault that certain skill combinations get play because they're strong? is it anet's fault that people don't bring counters to certain skills (SPECIFICALLY searing flames) and thus whine for a nerf? What do you want people? Just because a skill or a build is strong doesn't mean there aren't counters for it that can easily be fit in on a bar, but because of either low quality players or the nature of the ladder they see success.

Thom · Nov 20, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

The problem with HA balance is HA, not the skills being used. The game type continues to focus around attacking and defending a stationary NPC. Searing flames is a great skill for attacking a group of players balled on an altar.

Fire skills have been largely mediocre in GvG and were only seriously used for killing NPCs at VoD. Searing Flames and Ramage as One are powerful in a GvG environment, but signifcantly less so than tombs. Searing Flames has provided something the GvG meta-game has lacked: Fire Elementalists (Nukers!) and a non-energy elite on elementalists. Thumpers are a stong pressure build, but suffer from being inflexible and pet dependent.

Good damage mitigation tactics along with a few snares and interrupts is normally enough to deal with anything you'll come against. Try to bring a skill to counter everything you'll see is a futile exercise. Most normal builds have more than enough to counter everything in the meta.

Northrog · Nov 20, 2006, 11:02 AM // 11:02

The problem is not only HA mechanics since we can see the same problems in GvG...
Some skills are strongly imbalanced.

- RaO
- energizing finale
- searing flames
- watch yourself

Thom Bangalter · Nov 20, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Searing flames and watch yourself are not imba. Searing flames is easily countered by common skills, and watch yourself! could just be replaced by GFTE. Watch yourself! is only strong because it combos nicely with energizing finale, which is imba.

Blame the Monks · Nov 20, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I believe a large part of the problem is that Anet balances the game based on top 20 play only. This means the experience of the middle and lower classes is largely ignored -- and the difference in what they play and how they play is huge. Lower ranked guilds are FAR more likely to face gimmicks than top teams and are generally unable to deal with it.

A good example of this is touch rangers in AB. Because top players had no problem dealing with it, anet did not change the skill. However, less skilled people in AB could not deal with it, which led to a proliferation of touchers in AB and tons of frustration on having to play then so often. You see the same scenario with many one dimensional builds -- from SF heroway to thumpers to sbri and the list goes on forever. IE, these skills are imba because they give an average player a big advantage against another average player, even if they don't give a top 20 player an advantage against another top 20 player.

Until anet takes into account the lower classes, mid to low level pvp will remain dominated by gimmicks and fotm. I believe pvp as a whole is worse off because anet has not yet realized balance in the hands of a few elite gamers is not the same thing as balance for the masses. Average players experience and play the game completely different than the top 20 does, and the balance changes should reflect this.